Jon Snow

MikeSal222
Hedge Knight
(08-27-03):

GRRM did a reading/signing at World's Biggest Bookstore in Toronto today (it's not really the biggest bookstore in the world, they just call it that). I didn't know about the event in advance, so I wasn't able to take notes, but I'll do my best to recap. Major Spoilers Ahead.

GRRM read a JON chapter. Presumably it's the first Jon chapter. Actually, I think he only read the first half of the chapter, because the reading wasn't very long. I apologize for how cursory my summary of this reading will be, because as I said, I wasn't able to take notes, and I was so absorbed in listening to the man himself read from AFFC that most of the details slipped right by me. I have a feeling that GRRM may read the entire chapter at the Con, though, so you guys may be able to fill in the blanks later.

The chapter takes place at the Wall. The Wall is weeping. Mance Rayder is brought forward with a noose around his neck and placed in a wooden cage. The Horn of Joramun is tossed onto a pyre, and Mance is tossed on the pyre too. He pleads with Stannis, saying "I'm not really a king!", but of course Stannis doesn't listen. Mance starts screaming as the fire consumes him. After a while 4 members of the Night's Watch shoot arrows into him to make an end of it.

(EDIT - dajamieson posted a brief summary of tonight's reading on another thread, and in his version Mance is shot with flaming arrows, not tossed on the pyre. Honestly, my version may be the wrong one, but either way Mance ends up in flames - and very dead.).

Then Stannis draws Lightbringer. Melisandre says some words about Azor Ahai which I can't remember exactly. She denounces the false gods of the wildlings. Jon remarks that he's never seen Lightbringer glow so brightly. Stannis proclaims himself the true king of Westeros. I'm sorry, but that's all I remember from the reading right now. Hopefully others can fill in the details. The tone of the chapter was very dark and ominous.

On to the Q & A (SPOILERS here too).

GRRM says he hopes to have AFFC done by the end of the year, but then he said that his hopes have been dashed before (i.e. he had hoped to have it done by WorldCon too, but obviously that didn't happen).

-- Someone asked GRRM not to kill off Tyrion, but GRRM said he makes no promises. Every character's life is in mortal danger on every page. Then he added: "And no man is more accursed than the kinslayer" with a devilish grin. Make of that what you will.

-- Someone also asked if there would be a happy ending to the series. GRRM said it would be bittersweet. GRRM says the tone of the ending of ASOIAF will be very similar to that of LOTR. His words were: "In LOTR, there was some happiness, but not for Frodo." He said that by reading the endings of some of his other books, you can get an idea of what the tone of the ending of ASOIAF will be like. But basically he emphasized that he's aiming for the same tone as the LOTR ending -- not totally bleak, but certainly not a fairy tale ending either.

The other questions were all things he's answered before, I think. Then he signed books (I had to buy another copy of the ASOS paperback for this event, as I was unprepared, but it was worth it). He inscribed mine: "Keep your sword sharp."

All in all, it was a very cool event. Since I won't be going to the Con, this was the next best thing. I apologize again for the lack of details, but I was caught off guard to begin with since I stumbled in just before the event started, and I was starstruck pretty much throughout the entire reading/signing. If I remember any additional details when I sober up, I'll add them later.

MikeSal222
Hedge Knight
(08-27-03):

GRRM also said he knows what will happen in Book 5 (A Dance with Dragons). He made a joke about how the book feels like it's constantly receding into the horizon (first it was supposed to be Book 2, then Book 3, then Book 4, etc.). This was in response to someone's question about whether AFfC has affected his plans for ADwD. GRRM said he has the events of ADwD pretty well mapped out (adding that he doesn't do detailed outlines of his novels in advance, which he feels would diminish the passion and intensity of writing the books). But he has a general idea of where ADwD is heading. Which is good news since it probably means the wait for ADwD won't be quite so long.

MikeSal222
Hedge Knight
(08-27-03):

I just happened to be browsing in the bookstore at the time (about 15-20 minutes before the event started), and saw the chairs set up with a sign saying "Meet George R.R. Martin". So I decided to stick around. Like I said, I had to buy another ASOS paperback since I didn't have mine with me at the time, but I wasn't going to pass up the chance to meet GRRM. The reading from AFFC was icing on the cake. I thought he was only doing a signing.

As I mentioned above, I have a feeling he'll read the JON chapter at the Con, since I doubt he was saving that chapter exclusively for the bookstore signing, which was a relatively small event compared to the size of the WorldCon.

But, since I probably won't be able to make it to the Con, it was a great (and serendipitous) opportunity to meet GRRM. If I hadn't been in the bookstore at that exact time, I wouldn't have known about the event either. I hadn't seen any advertising for it anywhere.

P.S.

Another tidbit I rememembered from the Q & A. GRRM told a funny anecdote about how he wasn't impressed with LOTR at first, but eventually fell in love with the book. He said he read LOTR when he was 15, and had been reading a lot of Robert E. Howard up to that point. He loved the Conan the Barbarian stories, filled with swordfighting and lusty tavern wenches, and when he first read about Hobbits with their hairy feet and pipe-smoking, he thought "What the heck is this? Conan could obliterate the Shire in no time. Where are the heroes in this story?" But GRRM said that by the time the story got to Weathertop, he had been won over. So even though LOTR has obviously been a major inspiration for GRRM, it wasn't love at first sight.

Yomoho
Commoner
(08-28-03):

SPOILERS

After Melissandra warned the wildings (who are all in a stockade - this scene takes place on the north side of the Wall, I think), she says some words in another language. The horn (which is black with runes inscribed upon it) bursts into flame. The horn is then dropped into the fire pit, where it lights the fire, consuming the cage and Mance. That is when Jon has four of his men fire arrows to put Mance out of his misery.

After the cage and Mance's body fall into the firepit, Jon looks into the bit, commenting how no dragons are coming out of the fire. This brings into question the stories he has heard about the power of king's blood burnt in fire.

Also, as Stannis is holding out Lightbringer, he offers the wildings a choice: bend the knee and settle the lands south of the wall, or die.

END OF SPOILERS

The reading was great, even though it wasn't the whole chapter. I can't afford to go to Torcon3, so it was nice to at least get a taste of the reading he will be doing there. I was able to get my copy of "A Clash of Kings" and the Hedge Knight comic signed (he inscibed in the book: "May your winters be short"). All in all, a good day!

Banditski
Freerider
(08-29-03):

george read the same jon chapter he read at the world's buiggest bookstore, except he read the whole thing, not just 15 min worth.

a few things of note before i begin:

he gave us a choice of which chapter we wanted to hear read. they were this jon chapter, the first sam chapter (never read before, but i hope he'll read it on monday), the dirst dany chapter, and the two dorne chapters he's read over a year ago.

this is the second jon chapter. i dunno what happens in the first, but something big must happen, or else why would he read the second and not the first?? maybe the first is too boring?? i dunno...

okay - the reading...

the first part was what he read at twbbs on wednesday... mel-stannis is burning mance, jon gets 4 night watchmen to shoot mance when he's screaming, etc...

a couple of things i don't recall reading in the previous spoilers, or clarifications... mance is brought out with his hands tied and wearing a noose of hempen rope. he is barefoot, and arms and legs are exposed to the elements. there are over 1000 wildlings present, but over 3/4 are women, children, and old men. mel calls joraman's horn "the horn of darkness". jon sees stannis and mel side by side and notes that "he is stone, she is flame" (or something close to that). mel says something "in a language jon did not understand" to set the runes on the horn on fire. jon notes nothing supernatural is happening while mance is/was burning, and thinks there is no power in king's blood. after mance is dead, mel shouts to the wildlings something about how they have to give up their "false gods, horn, king".

okay the new stuff...

they (stannis & co.) let whichever wildlings would agree to keep the kings peace to pass through a wooden baracade on the north side of the wall, through the tunnel in the wall, to the south side. at first they were weary, and only a couple went. then as the others saw that nothing bad happened to the trail blazers, the trickle turned into a steady stream. as they passed each was given a piece of weirwood - "a piece of the old gods to feed the new". the fire god is a jealous deity (i think jon thinks this). oh, they also get a bowl of onion soup.

rattleshirt and the new magnar of thenn are two of those who pass through the wall. stannis wants to make them all kneel to him as their king, and jon says something along the lines of "the free folk mock kneelers. let them keep their dignity, and they will love you better." to which stannis replies, "it is their obedience i need, not their love."

there was something about alastair thorne bad mouthing jon, and jon thinks "i'll have to deal with thorne before he deals with me."

the four giants remain north of the wall (one won't leave him mammoth, and the rest won't leave him) (only 4 giants left?!?). the rest of the wildlings are set free, and mel/stannis tells them to tell the other wildlings "one realm, one god, one king." the four giants are the last to go.

jon notes that mel is stannis's "red shadow".

jon orders the baracade disassembled, and to use the wood as fuel for a pyre to burn the corpses.

bowan marsh tells jon that many of the nightswatch men wonder about jon - think that he is a warg, etc. (ie men are wary of him.) it comes up that stannis has made rattleshirt a lord, and will be giving/gave him a castle on the wall. jon says that he told stannis that he will nt have wildlings on the wall, only in the gift. marsh also says that some nw men (i think it was janos slynt) are saying that jon is on stannis's side against the lannisters in the war for the iron throne.

doloros edd says something like "we burn their king, burn their gods, but they get onion soup."

jon goes to see stannis in castle black (i think) and before he admitted, he is searched and stripped of weapons. rattleshirt and magnar are there, with mel between the two wildlings. jon kneels, but stannis ignores him for a while. jon notes that there are no kingsmen in stannis's little circle (i assume this to mean they are all queensmen and wildlings). when stannis does start to talk with jon, he noted how he was 'irritated' by jon ordering the four archers to kill mance in the fire.

stannis is has changed out of his armour, but he still looks uncomfortable - "it is not in stannis to be comfortable." stannis says the arrows were a sign of mercy, and jon doesn't deny it. rattleshirt says something about how jon is a bastard, and how they are shifty anyway (or some such slander). rattleshirt also says that jon had mance shot so jon could claim to have killed mance rayder. jon is offered a drink (stannis drinks lemon and water) but jon thinks that he won't drink with these men.

apparently, it will take a year to get one of the castles on the wall repaired (nightfort??). i seem to recall that being too long for stannis, but i'm not sure. stannis means to use the wildlings as soldiers to fight the greyjoys and lannisters. stannis wants armour and weapons for the wildlings (approx 300 fighting men). stannis is going to use the women as hostages, but jon says that the spearwives are fighters, but stannis wont have women with him. this includes mel - she'll be staying on the wall.

jon and stannis look at a map, with candles on corners... stannis declares the winterfell is to be his first objective. "there is still power in the name winterfell" (or something). he plans to deal with the bastard of bolton there. jon had always heard that stannis was cautious, but this plan doesn't sound that way. jon tells stannis about the bolton uprising 700 years ago, and the stark king laid seige to the dreadfort for four years before winning.

there was something about horpe being the most formidable of the queensmen. he sigil is three moths on ash and bones.

anyway, jon says that stannis can't march down the kingsroad, and he can't use the wildlings against the north. northmen fear wildlings, so he won't get any support from other lords, and might get attacked along the way (by umbers??) jon says that stannis will need all the northern lords to get the boltons (umbers, karstarks, manderlys, etc.) most importantly, the umbers can't side with the boltons. there was something about an umber uncle taken hostage at the red wedding, but i'm not too clear about this...

stannis sends everyone but jon away. they leave reluctantly, and give jon dirty looks, etc. someone mutters "boy". mel and devon (squire) also remain.

stannis asks jon which of three choices would he have as warden of the north (i wish i could write fast enough to get down who the choices were, but i can't). jon doesn't like any of them, and wants stannis to hold winterfell in trust for sansa. stannis replies "for sansa, or for tyrion lannister??" stannis then says that he's giving it to the karstarks (i guess they were one of the three choices).

jon says that deepwood motte is the best place to start the war for the north. it's the closest to the wall, easy to creep up on, made of timber, and most importantly, in the hands of the ironmen, not northmen. restoring the castle to it's rightful owners is a good thing (said by jon or stannis, i don't remember). stannis can't afford to get mixed up with the umbers, so he suggests that stannis cross a goat track through the mountains and emerge at gates of deepwood motte. the people there are petty lords, not umbers (flint, big bucket, etc.). jon says that the norrys will help - they are friends of the night watch.

jon says that these people worship the old gods and not to offend or insult them. this is when mel says that she will remain on the wall to advise lord meadows (i dunno who he is). jon says that the wall is no place for women - it makes the men uneasy. mel takes it as a compliment (i think).

i think mel says something about how there are a lot of people who want jon dead. the way george read it reminded me of dr. evil in austin powers ("no one can stop me. not even - austin powers").

that's about it...

EDIT:

OK! finally i can post the rest! i know that everyone else has done a great job, but i would feel incomplete if i didnt finish it. so here's goes.
so Roose is still down south. stannis wants to deal severely with the bastard of bolton (for which i applaud him, i hate that bastard! )

there is mention of a HARLON stark, hundreds or thousands (cant remember) of years ago, who was revolted against by the boltons. i think jon mentions this.

stannis says he wants to take moat cailan from the ironmen. jon says no one can take moat cailan... from the SOUTH. jon is feeling the pressure of advising stannis (as os said, he kept thinking that "talking is not fighting" or whatever). jon tells stannis "you need the hornwoods, the manderlys and the UMBERS. karhold is not enough."

it is mentioned that greatjon umber is being held hostage after the red wedding. i think that stannis says that the umbers would be no help, because while the umbers hate the boltons, they hate the wildlings more, living so close to the wall as they do.

there is mention of a ser jiles (sp?) and a ser massey (sp?)

stannis says: "all leave me now, except lord snow." melisandre also remains.

it is mentioned that devan (davos's son) is stannis' cupbearer. no mention of davos though.

stannis again tries to get jon to take WF. jon refuses again (especially since he's LC of the NW now!) stannis presents several choices and then says he will make the karstark (not sure which one) the lord of WF.

jon says that moat cailin is not the best choice. stannis asks him "where then?" jon replies "Deepwood Motte." jon tell stannis that it is easy to attack, cause its held by ironmen, not northmen.

but to get there they must not take the the kingsroad. jon says they have to go through the mountains, with the mountain clans, who are "proud, poor and prickly. but they are hospitable, you will eat well."

jon says thay must pass through the Norryland, the Norries are friends to the NW. the paths are goat tracks.

"goat tracks?" stannis asks scornfully.

jon convinces him it is the best way. but jon warns them that the mountain clans worship the old gods (this is aimed at mel). so dont offend them.

mel says, don't worry i'm staying on the wall.

mel then says "i have seen it in the flames jon snow, you have enemies"

jon says "i know."

stannis says: "not the enemies you know. the enemies who smile at you"

there you go.

Ran
King o' the Board
(08-29-03):

What the heck is Stannis thinking, making Rattleshirt a lord specifically after Jon told him that Rattleshirt's honor is buried deep beneath his bones? Rattleshirt is basically quick to sell out his own people ... Too bad Stannis does not have Genghis Khan's example - never trust a man who will betray his own people.

Only four giants? How terrible. It's noted in ASoS that only the giants were holding against Stannis's assault .... Maybe this means that the majority of them were able to make an orderly retreat? One hopes so, anyhow.

House Horpe has three deathshead moths on its shield. I'd link to it, but Westeros is down. Maybe later. Is he given a name or a title? Last I recall, they were basically just knights, but GRRM may have improved their position, or perhaps "formidable" is meant in the physical/martial sense ... or he's a fellow who managed to put himself in the forefront of the queen's men by guile and bootlicking. Actually, any mention of Ser Axell Florent?

Cool ... Bolton uprising 700 years ago. Four year siege, too. The Dreadfort must be a pretty tough nut to crack.

It's noted that the Umber lands start are on the east side of the kingsroad ... so, yeah, they could definently attack. But an Umber uncle held hostage? The Greatjon was captured, but there weren't any uncles. His uncles, Mors and Hother, are co-castellans of Last Hearth right now. Not very pleasant fellows.

I hope someone got the choices down. :) That'd be interesting. The Karstark ... would be rather young, I should think, assuming Harrion Karstark somehow managed to get to the north already ... Likelier, he's been given up for dead and an uncle or cousin has been "given" the lordship from Stannis's gracious hand, along with Winterfell... Or something. There's Alys Karstark still to be married off, too.

Is the term "petty lord" used specifically? Interesting. The mountain clans are what he's referring to, whose lords are known by their clan name (i.e., the Norrey leads the Norreys, the Wull leads the Wulls, etc.) although in Winterfell they're called lords as a sort-of courtesy. It'd fit. In any case, there are Flints, Norreys, Liddles, Knotts in the high meadows and so on, Wulls to the west of the mountains along the Bay of Ice (Big Bucket must be their present chieftain -- Theo Wull, who died at the tower of joy, was nicknamed Buckets; as you can guess, buckets figure on their arms), and Harclays among the foothills of the mountains. There's also the Burleys, but their arms (bearing a white knife) suggests to me that they're situated about Long Lake and the mountains which are the source of the White Knife river.

Lord Elwood Meadows is the young lord who was Ser Cortnay Penrose's lieutenant at Storm's End. Didn't have the stomach for a fight and immediately turned the castle over to Stannis on Penrose's death. Interestingly, he was last at Storm's End as far as we knew, acting as Gilbert Farring's second in command at Storm's End. This suggests that Storm's End's garrison was at least partly reduced by Stannis before he took off for the North, and Lord Meadow appears to be acting as Stannis's representative at Castle Black. Presumably Davos is still at Eastwatch with the royal household and fleet, which is interesting.

Perhaps, despite his teaching Stannis about his duty, he is in some sort of quasi-disfavor because of Melisandre being foiled. If she made a fuss about not wanting to have to deal with him, perhaps Stannis would decide that he'd rather have Melisandre at his side.

Also, her comment suggests to me that Lord Meadows will be her latest source for shadow-babies. I wonder who she'll be sending their shadowy blades at?

Ran
King o' the Board
(08-29-03):

Lyanna Wolfgirl
Noble
(08-29-03):

so i just came from the friday morning 11 am reading that grrm gave at torcon. as promised, here are the notes from that reading.

grrm first gave us options of which chapter he had, and asked us which one we wanted. they were....

in case people don't want to know what the other chapters were.

(1) the rest of the jon chapter, (2) a dany chapter, (3) the 2nd dorne chapter, or (4) a samwell tarly chapter, which he said he's never read before. all the bwbers wanted sam, but the consensus in the room was jon. so here goes!

so the beginning part most of you have heard on the post from the world's biggest bookstore. so here's the whole thing.

So jon is standing at the wall. the wall is weeping. mance rayder is led out bound with hempen rope. he is barefoot. he wears just roughspun, no cloak. jon thinks that he should have his cloak patched with red that the wildling woman mended for him. "a king should have a cloak." mance is smiling until he sees the cage. he says "i bend the knee!" but the noose tightens.

mel says "all men must choose." jon thinks that her voice (or breath?) smells like "anise, nutmeg and cloves." 

mance is all bloody as they carry him to the cage. then they bring forth the horn of joruman.

mel calls it the "horn of darkness, the hell horn." she states that it is a bad thing, because if it is blown the wal will fall, and the others will come through. jon thinks that stannis is like stone, while mel is like fire.

stannis is wearing armor with a flame red sigil thing over his heart (this info courtesy of os) it is mentioned that selyse is at eastwatch.

they throw the horn in the fire. it bursts into flame. the gold runes on the horn shimmer.

mance starts saying, "I'm not the king!"

jon wants to look away, but he can't, not in front of his men.

so then mance is in the cage in the fire.

jon thinks of the song "the dornishmen's wife." "now i'm (being killed) by the dornishman's sword, but i've kissed the dornishman's wife."

then jon has his archers kill mance so he wont burn to death, as a mercy.

stannis wanted the wildings to see mance die.

jon notes that NO DRAGONS came from the flame. "so much for king's blood" (he thinks)

mel says "None can withstand his flame! Free folks! your false gods didn't save you, your false king didn't either"

stannis wields lightbringer. it's brighter than anyone has ever seen. jon then thinks, "is THIS the power of king's blood?"

mel starts a chant "one realm one god one king!"

stannis says something like "if you kneel you live. if you go you die"

stannis says "open the gates!" his men echo him and then dolorous edd opens the gate. mel says if you come through these gates you will find life.

stannis men's (queen's men?) give pieces of weirwood to each person as they pass through. one woman with 2 kids runs away towards the hills. one old man takes his wood and uses it as a weapon against the men. they stab and kill him. the others walk around the body.
 
jon sees shadows of mel and stannis large on the wall.

the new magnar (son of the old magnar of thenn) is the first to kneel. then rattleshirt. hornfoot people, alfred croweater's son, harma's sister (?), milkwater people, all kneel. (again courtesy of os ) food and clothing is waiting for them on the other side of the wall. jon thinks that the game is methodical.

wildlings go thru gate.
 
alliser comes up to jon and mutters "the wildlings hate us." jon silences him with a look (yay!) but the look between them is thick with loathing. jon thinks he needs to deal with alliser before alliser deals with him.
jon thinks of the whole thing as a "royal mummers show." and thinks of mel as stannis' "red shadow."

jon had bowen marsh rip down the stockades and burn them with the bodies. (again, os' info)

conversation with bowen marsh and jon: bowen says that they are saying that jon is a warg and that he is loyal to the wildlings, and gave them the wall.

stannis is going to make rattleshirt a Lord with a Castle. jon thinks that just like that, he is the lord of bones again...

bowen says they are saying that jon wants to help stannis usurp the iron throne and turn the NW into traitors.

much talk about how everyone fears tywin lannister (no one knows about his accident on the privy yet)

stannis commands jon to attend him. jon thinks that since he is LC stannis might be more respectful to him but he goes anyway.

he goes to kings tower. there are people there. Rattleshirt (back to lord of bones) is there. he wears a thick bracelet with a ruby set in it. all queen's men with fiery hearts are around stannis. no king's men.

they discuss taking back the north. stannis wants to strike immediately and use the wildlings as warriors. jon says NW wont fight, obviously. stannis says he only wants them to supply them with arms. spears, armor and hauberks. jon is not happy about this. he says they have no armorer since donal nye died.
 
stannis will leave valla in jon's care. jon says that women can fight. stannis is clearly against this idea. lord meadows (?) says that camp followers just slow them down. jon insists that they are spearwives, not camp followers.

so stannis says he is going to take winterfell and raise his banners there. then he wants to attack the dreadfort and get the bastard of bolton. he says the karstarks will help him. roose is still down south.

to be continued....

EDIT:

OK! finally i can post the rest! i know that everyone else has done a great job, but i would feel incomplete if i didnt finish it. so here's goes.

so Roose is still down south. stannis wants to deal severely with the bastard of bolton (for which i applaud him, i hate that bastard!)

there is mention of a HARLON stark, hundreds or thousands (cant remember) of years ago, who was revolted against by the boltons. i think jon mentions this.

stannis says he wants to take moat cailan from the ironmen. jon says no one can take moat cailan... from the SOUTH. jon is feeling the pressure of advising stannis (as os said, he kept thinking that "talking is not fighting" or whatever). jon tells stannis "you need the hornwoods, the manderlys and the UMBERS. karhold is not enough."

it is mentioned that greatjon umber is being held hostage after the red wedding. i think that stannis says that the umbers would be no help, because while the umbers hate the boltons, they hate the wildlings more, living so close to the wall as they do.

there is mention of a ser jiles (sp?) and a ser massey (sp?)

stannis says: "all leave me now, except lord snow." melisandre also remains.

it is mentioned that devan (davos's son) is stannis' cupbearer. no mention of davos though.

stannis again tries to get jon to take WF. jon refuses again (especially since he's LC of the NW now!) stannis presents several choices and then says he will make the karstark (not sure which one) the lord of WF.

jon says that moat cailin is not the best choice. stannis asks him "where then?" jon replies "Deepwood Motte." jon tell stannis that it is easy to attack, cause its held by ironmen, not northmen.
 
but to get there they must not take the the kingsroad. jon says they have to go through the mountains, with the mountain clans, who are "proud, poor and prickly. but they are hospitable, you will eat well."
 
jon says thay must pass through the Norryland, the Norries are friends to the NW. the paths are goat tracks.

"goat tracks?" stannis asks scornfully.

jon convinces him it is the best way. but jon warns them that the mountain clans worship the old gods (this is aimed at mel). so dont offend them.

mel says, don't worry i'm staying on the wall.

mel then says "i have seen it in the flames jon snow, you have enemies"

jon says "i know."

stannis says: "not the enemies you know. the enemies who smile at you"
there you go.


Ran
King o' the Board
(08-29-03):

OsRavan  
Shield of Lannisport
(08-29-03):

ok. lya couldnt ifnish the chapter os im adding i nthe end as well as some details. msotly im talking about the second half of this chapter.

few details to add to lyannas post:

mance *is* proud and deifant at first untill he sees the cage and then he panicks

the horns ruins *do* glow as it burns

stannis and mel gives a speech about 'look at your king now. look at your horn now" to break their spirit

then mel and her followers start screaming "One kingdom one god one king" over and over. Martin made me jump a foot in the air when he read this part because he bellowed it out lol

when jon has mance killed that was *not* what stannis wanted. he ordered the brothers to shoot them.

then stannis tells the wildings they have a choice. join him or leave (the captains can join or die. the common people can leave). whoever martin makes a big deal out of how the wildigns are starving and in rags. And so most accept the offer. alot of times we hear how 'onion soup for freedom' etc. onion soup waiting on the other side of the wall

What happens is all the wildings who want to come south of the wall.. or want any food to eat.. have to step fowards and burn a piece of wierwood and bend the kneee to stannis.

as stated lord of bones the new thenn etc bend the knee and are to be made lords by stannis.

accoridng to martin about one in 10 of the captured free folk went back into the forst rather then join stannis and bend the knee etc. The giants all stay behind because the mamoths wont fit through the wall. and when they find this out one giant refuses because of this. and when he refuses the others all refuse also (a new king of the giants?)

stannis warns that if the free folk who take up his offer ever ocme back to make war on the wall they will be killed.

then jon has a long talk with bowen marsh who seems to be acting surprisingly loyal and helpfull. HE warns how thorne and others are spreaidng rumros about jon. How he is letting the wildings through and is stannis catspaw. that he is a wilding ath eart etc etc. its hard to sotmach standing by and letting the free folk through. and resentment is spreading. Jon comments he should stick thorne in the kitchen slicing onions and marsh responds 'not if you plan on ever eating onions again' or something like that.

Marsh also warns that others are spreaidng rumros etc besides thorne and the obviouse people.

marsh then is ordered ot help with his stewards (see lya's post for what they are doing. there were 200 brothers with jon outside the wall btw). And jon goes with dolouress edd back through the wall. edd is his gaurd.

we have some great humor but i wont do justice for ed lol. but the entire room wasl aughing aloud when it was read!!

when jon exits the gate he is surrounded by queensmen and taken to stannis. Jon notes how the gaurds order him to come they dont request.

one note: Davos is not mentioned *At all* in this chapter. dont know the meaning of this. this is the *Second* jon chapter. but it seemed worthy of note.

jon gets to stannis meeting room and its stannis, mel, lord of bones the new magnar an a bunch of queens men. Jon notes how there are no kingsmen at all in stannis' councils. only queens men. Again.. no mention of davos. though his son devan is mentioned

Also big cool hint! SOmewhere along this itme jon thinks how much he wished he had maester aemon to give him council. But that sam aemon and gilly were all still at sea. Big spoiler eh?

anyway. stannis tells jon his plan which is to march with his new host. Wich includes 300 wildings now... (jon asks him to take the spear wives stannis says 'i iwll never take woman on campaign. never' jon argues but loses. *I* think the spearwives will end up helping jon somehow. but the spearwives nad other wildings are ot be left at the wall). Stannis also demands arms and armor for the 300 wilding warriors.

This worrys jon because the only reason the watch can beat the freefolk is weaposn and trianing. and stannis is giving both to them. and the brothers wont like it. he gives in and agrees to arm the wildings with spears. but he refuses to give them armour claiming there isnt enough left with noye dead. stannis dismisses it and claims the wildings will get armour from those they kill

Along the way we have alot of stannis captains (lord medow is one the other names slip my mind) making snide comments behind jons back. We also learn selyse is at eastwatch still and that all the watches builders are working on the nightfort with some of stannis men but that repairs are 6 months from being completed.

Stannis means to use this time to his advantag.e he is worried about people thinking tywin will mop him up (they dont know tywin is dead yet). Likewise with the ironmen dead and bolton not back he wants to strike while the striking is good.

Stannis explains his plan. HE will command reserves. the iwldings will be the van. He lsits tow other captains who command his lfanks. Lord Medows will stay behind with 100 men at the wall to keep track of stannis' intrests at the wall.

meanwhile according to the plan proposed lord stannis will march down the kingsroad to winterfell and reoccupy the castle. then he will move on the dreadfort meeting up with lord karstark who apparently has entered an alliance with stannis.

HEre is an area i am confused with. Stannis has made an allaicne with rickard karstarks *uncle* an old man who has had many dead wives. I could be wrong but i tihnk he is referred to as the lord of karhold despite the one surviving karstark son.

anyway that aside. the plan is karstark and stannis meet up and sieze the dreadfort. after stannis takes winterfell and then in thanks for dealing iwth the betrayer bolton.. as well as rallying aorund the 'new lord of winterfell' the north falls into stannis lap.

jon at this point thinks to himself "I am sworn not to take sides in the conflict." he paused and then thinks "But talking isnt fighting". He speaks up..earning scathing comments from the captains..that stannis plan is ludicrouse.

He claims that 800 years ago a stark king whose name i dont remember besieged rebelling obltons and it took 4 years for the dreadfort to fall. bolton would arrive before stannis wins. when the captains are skeptical 'no man has ever tkane then moat' jon says *from the south* HE then also declares htat the northerners would never ever accept a southern lordling ruling from winterfell. He then goes on to declare that if stannis marches into the north with a wilding army the north will unite agaisnth im. that htey dislike the boltons but the enemity iwth the free folk is eons old. and the first reaction of every northerner will be ot throw the wildings back no matter what. and they would rather have a bolton then wildings. and they are tired of war and dont want to joiin a losigncause again.

Jon adds that stannis owuld never make it to winterfell either. that ravens fly faster hten men and the nroth will know he marches iwth wildings and rise up. That fighting the free folk is in the blood of the umbers whose land stannis owuld have to pass through. and hte momment stannis ocmes osuth with wildings every umber man there is will sadle up and ride agaisnt stannis.

one of stannis men expresses scorn going 'an umber side with a bolton?' and i ofrget the exact thing that leads ot the ocmment but someone says that the umbers wont act cause the greatjon is a prisoner.

then one of stannis captains responds with soemthing like 'well if the greatjon dies the uncles can take over so they will help us." and jon looks at the guy with scorn ad goes 'is that what you would do? and the greajon has sons. and nayway it is in their blood to fight the free folk'

at this point stannis stands up and says he wants to talk to the lord commander and bids all his captains ot leave. we have lastm intue descripotiosn fo what all the captains do (one jests one downs his wine etc0 before they leave. jon ntoes this order doesnt seem to apply to mel.

stannis then goes on how his brother always won his battles by being bold. but now that he tihnks of it ned stark was laways there to tmeper his boldness with caution. but that stanis must act now whilke he has the oppurtunity and his enemies are disorganized.

jon agian thinks 'should i talk? i cant takesides. but talking isnt fighting'

im a little unsure of what comes first here but at one point stannis presses jon to accept his offer of winterfell yet again. and jon declines yet again. and says he wouldnt accept even if he wasnt lord commander. stannis gnashes his teeth at this. he asks if jon wants tyrion urling winterfell with his sister cowering at his feet. and then explains he has no intention of giving winterfell to a osuthern lordling. he claims it will go to the karstark.. the uncle.. someone with some stark blood. who while he is old has many sons lol. this annoys jon but he holds his tongue

stannis adds that lord karstark is ocnvinced the dreadfort will fall. and that the manderlys iwll join

jon has the 'should i geti nvolved' thought and he then proposes the plan to and attakc deepwood motte. By doing this jon explains stannis will be attakcing the ironmen. not northmen. and for that mostn orthmen will forgive him having a wilding army. and he can reahc it by going through the mountains. thus avoiding the umbers who owuld attack no matter what. jon then goes into a lengthy explanaiton ofthe mountain clans. his eddard called them lrods but hteir own people call them 'the norry the locke' etc. stannis asks if htey would support him. jon responds that one group (forget wich) deifnitly owuld if he attacked the ironborn. and the noreys who stannis must pass through would leave him alone. he points out the mountian clans are proud. and that hwne his father toured among htem they lvoed ot feast him. so they wil lrmeain neuturaul...if.. and he hesitates and looks at mel... stannis didnt toruble their gods. they worship the old gods and wont tolerate the trees being burned.

mel respodns htey can keep their trees and stay in the dark. besides.. she wont begoing. she will be staying at the wall. jon thinks then that this menas she will really be in charge not medow.

They also discuss how they can take a mountian pass to deepwood. the umbers would ifght stannis no matter what. Stnanis is skeptical of the 'goat track' butj on points out that the young dragon won his battle with one. And stannis replys it was ships that won the war for the young dragon. how the hips let his troops sieze everythign to the green blood river while the main dornish force was up in the princres pass fighting him. cool spoilers on that war.

at this point it bcoems accepted stannis will attakc the ironborn to iwn credubiltiy. and give depewood motte back to its rightfull northern lords.

mel then warns jon that he has manhy enemys. to wich jon responds "i know" and she goes she had seen it in the fire and oculd tell him *who* to wich jon respodns he already knows who. Then stannis warns him that its not the people you know are your enemys you must fear but the enemy who smiles at you.

Ran
King o' the Board
(08-29-03):

The giants won't leave their mammoths ... man. They're loyal to them. I wonder if they might try for the Gorge.... It's doubtful they could get their mammoths across, but who knows? Or maybe they should try for Eastwatch and maybe see if they can't load the mammoths on to some of the bigger craft . . . Well, no, I guess they'll probably just be killed and turned into wights by the Others.... A damned shame, though.

Sam and Gilly at sea ... okay, I figured. But _Aemon_? Wow. Why? Fearing that Melisandre might try for his royal blood? Surely Jon needs a maester ... well, I guess he can borrow one from Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower, but still. I do believe Samwell is indeed going to the Citadel, in any case. This seems to clinch it.

Can anyone recall the two men Stannis mentions as the two commanders of the flanking battles of his force?

Now, as to the Karstarks, we do not know what happened to Harrion Karstark. The last we saw of him, he was marching off to Duskendale. In all likelihood, he was killed, captured, or maybe he managed to escape ... but almost certainly he'd be stranded in the riverlands without means to get home. So, as far as the Karstarks know, he's dead. Alys Karstark is still about, but she's but a girl, and who's around to watch out for her interests? So, Rickard's uncle seizes his chance, with Stannis's complicity -- Stannis does a little writ or something approving this guy's ascension.

Alys may well have been married off to one of her cousins .... or maybe Lord Karstark plans to take her to wife? If first cousins can marry, not much reason why a great-uncle can't marry his grand-niece.

Well, that's cool. Clearly, there is a Locke clan, which we did not know before. That raises the total number of mountain clans to seven, I believe. There's a Lord Locke who has a castle, Oldcastle, and there's a Ser Mallador Locke who doesn't sound like he's an old god-following clansman. This is not strange, however. There are two noble Flints houses, _and_ a Flint clan as well.

I loved the bit about the Young Dragon's conquest of Dorne. Very interesting.

Trebla
Lord of House Mata
(08-29-03):

Also, her comment suggests to me that Lord Meadows will be her latest source for shadow-babies. I wonder who she'll be sending their shadowy blades at?

Her cryptic comment about a lot of people wanting Jon dead could indicate that Jon is a target. I'm really looking forward to reading Jon's 1st chapter.

Stannis, despite his inclination to do the righteous thing, appears to be acting peevish. Jon rejecting him seems to be steering Stannis towards Jon's enemies. Again, I'm very curious as to the whereabouts of Tormund Giantsbane. Jon gave him the best endorsement, it'll be interesting to see if he is still holding out with the rest of the Wildlings beyond the Wall.

Ran
King o' the Board
(08-29-03):

Ser Giles is probably Ser Giles Farring ... what, did he leave Storm's End entirely empty when he left, then? No, it can't be, as we know that they think they have to besiege the place in KL. Then he must have taken ... well, Meadows was a reachlord and Farring was from the KL region, so perhaps he decided that giving the castellanship of the castle to some one of the stormlors was best. He noted to Davos that he considered Lord Lester Morrigen a good man ... perhaps he could be holding it now.

Massey must be a Massey of Stonedance, on Massey's Hook. Lord Massey, perhaps? Interesting....

No, Tormund isn't called Giantsbane for killing giants during the battle. But damn, this captain has to be pretty tough if he killed giants and survived. So ... (Lord?) Massey, Ser Giles (Farring?), Lord Elwood Meadows, plus three others -- including this guy with a grudge?

There's no obvious person that would have a grudge against Jon by nature ... A Thorne? Some relation of Ser Alliser Thorne who has picked up his hatred? Or, as you say, someone who Jon has a run-in with in the first chapter? Might be that Jon said something uncomplimentary about his glorying in killing giants. Could this be Horpe, perhaps? The one that is mentioned as being the most formidable of the queen's men?

Harry the Heir
Big Oedipal Daddy
(08-29-03):

So things we think happened in the first Jon chapter would include:

* an encounter between Jon and Tormund?

* an encounter between Jon and Stannis re: Lord of Winterfell, which I think he gave a longer speech on then; his response here seems to suggest that

* details on whatever Stannis and Mance worked out pre-execution

* Jon's decision, perhaps covert, to send Samwell and Aemon at sea, I assume to the Citadel; I'd said quite strongly before that I didn't see a good reason for Sam to go to the Citadel given the danger involved, but as a cover to keep Aemon away from Melisdandre plus the added benefit of him gaining training as a maester, it makes a bit more sense, and I can't imagine where else they'd be going

* something about Davos?

- One of the reasons that Davos could be at Eastwatch, besides being in "quasi-disfavor" and needing to watch over the ships as Lord Admiral, is so that Stannis can do things that Davos would object to. I doubt this is the reasoning that Stannis himself used, but I've no doubt that Melisandre is thinking along those lines. All the "king's men" are noticeably far away from the king.

- I notice that Rattleshirt is wearing a braclet like Melisandre's choker; is this just a symbol of their faith, or does it have more ominous powers than that?

- I don't think Melisandre is threatening Jon, necessarily; I think she's trying to get Jon to rely on her to watch out for his "enemies", not all of which will necessarily be his enemies of course, so that she can more easily dictate policy. Good for him for saying no.

- Nice touch about Jon mentioning the Young Dragon, somebody he hasn't mentioned since his first chapter in A Game of Thrones as far as I know but one of his childhood heroes. (The last time I read the books the relation between the names Young Wolf and Young Dragon finally occurred to me; Robb's fate was right in front of us all the time, had we seen the clues.)

- Lord Meadows' main qualification is that he's a stooge, I guess.

- Who's giving advice to Jon now? Aemon and Sam are gone, the Old Bear is dead, the two commanders of Pyke and Eastwatch are there, so, is it just Bowen Marsh?

Mouse
High Priestess
(08-30-03):

My summary of Friday's reading - a day late and a dollar short, but here nevertheless. Please excuse any typos -- I'm trying to get this done quickly, and I am used to typing on an ergonimic keyboard!

Note: I have read any of the other summaries from Friday (I did read Wednesday's). or anything else on this thread. Still, I'm presuming you've got the rough outline, and I'm just adding detail.

When Mance is brought forward, he is smiling at first, but when he sees the cage, his courage fades. He protestes, "No, I've bent the knee." Mel says something, and Jon thinks that her voice sounds of "anise, nutmeg, and clove." Mance begs for mercy - "I'm no king."

The Horn of Joramun is a "great black horn"; when it bursts into flames, there is green and yellow fire. The runes seem to shimmer in the air.

Jon thinks that the wildlings, sometime called free folk, "look neither free, nor wild."

Mel warns that if the Wall were to fall, "the night will never end." The ruby at her throat pulses with light. Jon thinks, "She is flame, and he is stone."

There are about 200 men of the Wall left at the garrison with Jon at this point. He thinks to himself that they are mostly greybeards and greenhorns.

Mance seems to "do a little dance" when the flames first touch his feet. (Allusions to mad kings past?)

When the four archers shoot arrows, Stannis scowls at the crowd.

When Mance dies, and nothing happens, Jon thinks. "So much for the power of king's blood." Mel declares, "Here stands the true king." Stannis brings forth Lightbringer, which glows. Jon thinks that he has seen it glow before, but "never before like this." It is "sun made steel," and a "storm of light." The sword makes the wall urn red, pink, and orange.

Stannis asks the free folk to bend the knee. "If you choose the light, come to me," says Mel. Those who comes forward are given a piece of white weirwood, as Mel says, the old gods to trade for the new. The fire casts shadows of Stannis and Mel against the Wall, black shadows,

When Rattleshirt comes forward, Jon thinks, how can this be justice? Jon thinks that Rattlshirt's loyalty will not last too long.

Jon thinks back to a previous conversation w/ Stannis, in which he'd told Stannis, "They will love you more if you let them keep their pride." Stannis said that its their loyalty (or fealty? or obedience?) he wants, not their love.

By dark, only a few score wildlings had not come forward. Stannis tells them they are free to go, but to tell others what they have seen. Mel begins a chnat, "One realm! One god! One king!" and Stannis' men take up the chant.

Jon then orders his men to tear down the stockade. Someone approaches Jon to tell him "there have been mutterings" about Jon. Jon says he knows, that the men say he's a wildling at heart, that he turns into a wolf at night. The other person says, yes, that, but also more. Some of the Wall have been fighting wildlings all their lives; their feelings run deep. The guy tells him that Stannis means to give Rattleshirt a castle on teh Wall. Jon says that he's already told Stannis there will be no wildlings on the Wall. The guy tells Jon that some say Jon has made a secret pact with Stannis to put him on the throne. Jon thinks that those people are really afraid of Tywin Lannister and believe that Stannis is doomed.

Jon goes into a tunnel where "cold tears" dribble down on him & Dolorous Edd.

South of the Wall, he finds the Queensmen, who say that Stannis commands his presence. In the King's Tower, Jon is stripped of his weapons. Magnar & Rattleshirt are there , and Jon is angry to see them. He notes that there are no kingsmen in the inner circle.

Stannis questions Jon about the 4 archers who shot Mance, but with irritation, not anger. "His life belonged to the Wall," says Jon. "His life belonged to the Lord of Light," counters Mel. She says, woe to him who steals from the Lord of Light -- they are fools. Jon says that he is a fool, then.

Jon asks why he has been summoned. Stannis tells him of the battle plans. "The time is ripe for me to march." Among other things, "the ironmen are rudderless." Stannis must attack fast while his foes are divided. Stannis demands arms from the Wall to arm the free folk who will fight. He estimates that 300 of the wildlings are fighting men. Jon can give them 300 spears. Stannis informs Jon he is leaving the women, children, and infirm in the Wall's care. Jon tells Stannis that the women like to fight with their men, but Stannis will have none of that.

Stannis tells of his battle plans. "Winterfell shall be our first objective. I mean to raise my standard there." Then he will move against the Dreadfort & BoB.

After hearing the details, Jon thinks that he's always heard Stannis was a cautious commanded, but "this was anything but cautious." He warns Stannis of many things, including they won't take the Dreadfort that easily, the Kingsroad is well-watched, and if Stannis has wildlings in his army, Winterfell will be well-armed by the time they arrive, and that some say Stannis fled to the north with a broken army in order to flee Tywin Lannister. Jon tells Stannis which northern houses he will need the support of, including the Umbers.

Stannis' men tell him he oughtn't take advice from a craven like Jon. Stannis commands everyone to leave but Jon. This doesn't include Mel, who stays.

"Robert won by moving swiftly and attacking where his opponents least expected it -- but it occurs to me he had your father for counsel," Stannis says.

Stannis then baits Jon by asking which of 3 men Jon would rather see lord of Winterfell. "None," says Jon angrily. Stannis tells him, "It's not too late to reconsider your folly," and reoffers Winterfell to Jon. Jon says no, but asks Stannis to hold Winterfell in trust. Sansa may still be alive. "You would see an imp" as Lord of Winterfell? Stannis asks. Stannis says he will give Winterfell to the Karstarks.

Jon suggests Deppwood Motte as the first place to attack. As he says this, he thinkgs to himself, "The Wall takes no part" in the battles of the realm, but justifies to himself that they have only ever plundered the realm. He tells Stannis that the northmen are not likely to take arms if this is the first battle objective. He says they don't need to follow the Kingsroad, they can go through the mountains and travel unseen in an area not ruled by the Umbers but by mountain lords. Stannis will have to pass through the Norrey's lands, but they are friends of the Wall. he warns that the clans worship the old gods and will not welcome any affront to their gods. 

Mel tells Jon that he has many enemies and she has seen them in her flames. She asks if he wants to know who. Jon says he knows who his enemies are. Stannis tells him he should not fear the enemies who curse him to his face, but those who smile to his face and sharpen their daggers behind his back.

The end.

Ran
King o' the Board
(08-28-03):

Any more on Mance and his reactions? From ASoS, Stannis says that Mance is being stubborn and will leave him no choice but to give him to the flames. Yet Mance's words seems to suggest that he stopped being stubborn at some point, doing whatever Stannis wanted .... and he was still sent to the flames. Shades of Ned here? Doing what he doesn't want, for whatever reason -- maybe thinking he can help the wildlings more alive rather than dead - and ends up getting despite that?

Linda's reading is that Stannis/Melisandre were hoping to burn him no matter what, and Stannis was half-hoping that Mance's defiance would give him some cover. But even without it, they were going ahead with it. Is there any suggestion that there's anything ritualistic about his burning?

Note, since this thread is marked spoilers, you don't need to black it.

Yomoho
Commoner
(08-28-03):

Ran, my reading of this (which is only one interpretation) is that Mance was stubborn until the end. However, I think he was just terrified of being burned to death (a sentiment that I could understand). For Melissandra, I think this execution was ritualistic. She saw Mance as an enemy to the God of Light since Mance was threatening to bring the Wall down with the Horn. This, according to her (this was stated in the chapter reading), would lead to the rise of the Other god and the coming of the Eternal Night. She also declared Stannis Azor Azai reborn after Mance died, right before Stannis unsheathed Lightbringer.

However, I think Stannis used this execution to drive the point home to the Wildlings that he is in control of the North, and that they better do what he says otherwise they will suffer similar fates.

Yomoho
Commoner
(08-28-03):

No appearance by Samwell or Davos, though it was only part of the chapter that was read. It was hard to tell if the horn was entirely destroyed, but it was definitely on fire. As for Jon's thoughts, they dwelled on Mance monstly. Mance was dressed in threadbare clothing, and Jon thought they should have at least given him his black cloak with the red stitching. Also, all of the Black Brothers that where present had their hoods up, including Jon, to hide their faces. Stannis wanted to make sure that no one saw Jon grieving for Mance's death.

MikeSal222
Hedge Knight
(08-28-03):

Jon seemed to be in a dark, contemplative mood while all this is going on. He thinks about "The Dornishman's Wife" song at one point. He thinks about life and death. Jon remarks that the Free Folk don't look very free anymore. Sam and Davos weren't mentioned at all in this reading. As to Mance's wife and child, and the ravens, I honestly don't remember. I don't think the horn burned up in the flames, but I'm not 100% sure. According to dajamieson's report, the horn actually ignited the pyre. I do know that the runes on the horn started glowing, just like Euron's horn. In fact, the description of the horns are nearly identical.

Ran
King o' the Board
(08-28-03):

Dalla died given birth to Mance's child. Val ... I won't be surprised if Stannis marries her off to someone who'll try to win the North for him -- perhaps one of those detestable Umber uncles.

As to the horn, Jon thinks it may have belonged to the biggest aurochs that ever lived, but it may well be made of dragonbone/horn. One noticeable difference is that the horn from AotK has Valyrian glyphs, while Jon identifies the incised emblems on the "Horn of Joramun" (yes, in quotes -- I'm not sure it's the actual thing) as "runes". It's likely that Jon has been shown what the runes of the First Men were like, so ... it suggests that the horn does not have Valyrian origins. Note that GRRM has stated that there were dragons all over - including Westeros - once.

Trebla
Lord of House Mata
(08-29-03):

I must say, this chapter is making me doubt my Stannis-boosterism, and this line in particular might do it.

Yet, the alternatives are what Jon imagined in ASoS: cannibals in the Wolfswood, giants camped in the ruins of Winterfell, maidens being kidnapped, etc. It's a double edged sword, I suppose. Stannis is probably going to try to turn the wildlings into a disciplined army with which to defend the Wall. Life vs. personal freedom..?

Harry the Heir
Big Oedipal Daddy
(08-29-03):

Trebla: I think you're right about the dilemma; I'm still put off by the very strong Night's King-ish air that Stannis has, though. (I was hoping, and still hope, that it's not him, simply because it strikes me as too obvious; somebody once argued that it was Bran, which I prefer purely on the "I think it would be a cool plot point" angle.)

Something that struck me as strange: Stannis telling Jon to raise his hood so that his men wouldn't see him grieving. First off, why is Stannis giving orders to the LC of the Night's Watch? Secondly, how did Stannis know that Jon would be grieving? Is it possible that one of the readers misunderstood this and Jon decided that all would go hooded himself to disguise his grief, or did Stannis somehow divine Jon's respect for Mance?

TrackerNeil
Prince of Sunspear
(08-30-03):

While I don't feel good about putting Mance to the fire, I can certainly understand why Stannis did not respond to a last-minute capitulation. The fact that Mance only relented when the flames were actually licking at his feet tells me that any oaths he swore would have been temporary at best. Hell, in ASOS he basically laughs when Jon asks if Mance can make the wildings pay the king's taxes and obey the king's laws. I suspect that, saved from the fire, Mance would soon have gone back to his old ways, and eventually would have risen against Stannis and the north.

Brady
Knight of the Bloody Gate
(08-31-03):

Anybody that liked Stannis KNEW that he was going to do exactly what he did in this chapter. I kind of liked Mance, as well, but I also knew that he was going to die. Imo, Stannis did the realm a favour by killing Mance, regardless of how ruthless his death seemed. Mance was no friend to the realm, especially the North, you see. Stannis is a hard man, nobody has denied that, but what he does do is 'right'. Mance was going to die anyway.

According to the Westerosi judicial system, Mance's punishment was death, yes.

But that doesn't adress Stannis' typically selective use of justice in this case. Rattleshirt is a particularly well-known and vicious raider. He is also no friend to the realm.

Yet Mance gets burned and the Lord of Bones gets a castle. Hmmmm. 

NedIsrael Revived
Needs Head
(08-31-03):

Yet Mance gets burned and the Lord of Bones gets a castle. Hmmmm.

You are forgetting that Mance is a traitor. He deserted the NW. Rattelshirt just fought who he thought are his enemies, he commited no treason. In addition, Mance could have caused a lot more problems for Stannis if he went free. He could make the wildings attack Stannis after they are armed with NW weapon. Rattelshirt is, as of now, no real threat over Stannis. The thing i don't underdtand is why Stannis wants him on his side and gives him a castle? I think Rattelshirt is pretty useless and untrustworthy.

Bronn Stone
Salt Husband of Pyke
(09-05-03):

Mance is a deserter from the Night's Watch. Desertion from the NW is punishable by death. Stannis is a stickler for such things and even points out to Jon in ASoS that many in the Watch were calling for the law to be upheld.

As others have pointed out, Rattleshirt was not a citizen of the Seven Kingdoms, had no oath of loyalty to the Iron Throne, and one suspects that Stannis chose to grit his teeth and accept his oath, despite Jon Snow warning him that the Lord o' Bones was not to be trusted.

Brady
Knight of the Bloody Gate
(09-06-03):

Rattleshirt isnt a citizen true - he's a raider. In other words; he raids across the Wall, steals, kidnaps and rapes. The known wildling leaders seem to have death sentences over their heads. Lesser wildlings like Osha are simply imprisoned. Even people who trade with the wildlings, like the Blind Bastard, are punished with death.

Either way, Westerosi justice seems to include wildling raiders in its legal system.