Davos Seaworth
Lodengarl
3-Fisted Baron of the BwB
(01-28-04):
Below is a summary of the first Davos chapter from A Feast for Crows, that was given to people who contributed to George's 2003 holiday gift - the Brian Rodden knight. Those people will receive a copy of the chapter in the mail shortly, and I advise those people to wait and read the chapter for themselves instead of the below summary. For those curious, we are not allowed to give the chapter out or make copies, and only a "summary" can be given - not the actual text. Below is the summary - which I will try to complete in pieces.
Davos is marched across a bridge, across a drawbridge to a gatehouse. Below is a salt moat. Green waters below. His hands were bound together and he was shoved across the yard. Inside the keep the guard and Davos took off their cloaks - Davos had not forgotten his courtesies and it had been raining
outside.
The Lord was in the hall drinking beer and eating sister's stew. The guard tells the Lord that they found Davos in the Belly O' the Whale (some smuggler's den), trying to buy his way off the island. Davos had a ribbon with the seals of the crowned stag, a flaming heart, and a white hand. Davos thought that one word from the lord and he would soon be hanging from the Gallows Gate of Sisterton. The waves were smashing against Breakwater's huge stone arches and swirling through the dungeons. Davos might end up there, chained to a wet floor, and would drown when the tide came in. Davos thinks he won't die a smuggler, because he is the King's hand, and this lord could sell him to the
queen.
The lord had webbing between his three middle fingers. Davos heard that some of the lords of the Three Sisters had webbed hands and feet. The lord wants to see Davos' hands to make sure he is the Onion Knight and Hand. The lord is Godric Borrell, Lord of Sweetsister. Since he was found at the Belly O' the Whale, Godric asks him if he is returning to his old ways. Davos denies it, saying he was looking for passage to White Harbor - Stannis sent him to go there and deliver a message. Godric tells him he is in the wrong place, with the wrong lord, and he is in Sisterton, on
Sweetsister.
Sisterton was not sweet - it was vile, small and mean and rank with odors. Davos knew it from his smuggling days. The streets were mud and planks, the houses daub-and-wattle hovels roofed with straw. Three Sisters had been a favorite place for smugglers for hundreds of
years.
Davos and Lord Godric both say they have and had friends from the Sisters. Godric says he hangs the ones who aren't his friends. He asks why Davos was brought there if he was going to White
Harbor.
He thinks - a king's command and a friend's betrayal - Instead he tells Godric it was
"storms."
29 ships left the Wall, and Davos would be shocked if half were still afloat. Oldeo and Old Mother's Son crashed on Skagos - the isle of the unicorns and cannibals. Saathos Saan crashed up on the Grey Cliffs. Saaladhor Saan fumed at the losses - other boats were lost and the Lyseni fleet had been scattered all over the narrow sea. Saan fumes to Davos, asking where the gold is he was promised, and that he will be known as the Beggar or the Smashed. Saan goes off on Davos about the King's word, and how his men are tired of being patient. He says he was patient at Dragonstone and at
Eastwatch.
Lord Godric goes back to Davos' answer of "storms" - he says that storms used to be sacred on the Sisters before the Andals came. Lady of Waves and Lord of the Skies - they made storms when they mated. Godric says the kings don't bother with the Sisters because they are poor and small, but the storms delivered
Davos.
Davos thinks instead that he was delivered by a friend instead of storms. Godric tells the guard to leave Davos and that Davos was never there. Davos tells Godric that if he would send him to White Harbor Stannis would see it as an act of friendship. Godric says he could, or he could send Davos to a cold wet
hell.
The Three Sisters were loyal to themselves. Supposedly they were sworn to the Arryns, but the Eyrie's grasp on them was tenuous at best. Godric tells Davos that Sunderland would require him to deliver Davos to him if he knew he was there. Borrell did fealty for Sweetsister, as Longthorpe did for Longsister and Torrent for Littlesister. All were sworn to Tristan Sunderland, Lord of the Three Sisters. Tristan had 7 troublesome sons who wanted to be knights and it was making him poor - he thinks he would sell Davos to Cersei. Davos says that Sunderland is sworn to the Eyrie so if anything Davos should be delivered to Lysa Arryn. Godric tells him the news of Lysa being murdered by a singer, and he asks Davos where the pirates are. Godric says Torrent spied their sails from Littlesister as well as the Flints from Widow's Watch. Davos tells him they are at sea and that Stannis sent them to trouble the Lannisters, but it was a lie - in truth Saan has abandoned the king and they were likely off to the Stepstone with what little ships they had
left.
Davos came ashore in a boat. Saan waited for the beacon of Night Lamp before dropping Davos off. Their friendship had been worth that much, at least. Saan would have taken Davos with him, but Davos refused to abandon Stannis. Stannis needed Wyman Manderly and trusted Davos to win him. Saan tells Davos that Stannis will kill him with his honors. Godric remarks that he has never had a Hand beneath his roof and he wonders if Stannis would ransom Davos. Davos wonders it as well. Godric asks Davos if Tyrion is at Castle Black with Stannis. Davos tells him no, and then is told about the murder of Tywin by Tyrion's hands. Godric's version of the telling is of course skewed, with Tyrion bathed in blood, etc. Davos is shocked that Tywin is dead. Godric says on the Sisters they did not suffer dwarfs to live - they would let crows feast on them when born, but the septons made them stop. Davos thinsk with Tywin dead, it changes everything and asks to send a raven to Stannis. Godric says Stannis will know, but not from him. Godric doesn't want it getting out that he aided Stannis' treason in any way. He mentions the Sunderlands dragged the sisters into two of the Blackfyre Rebellions, and house Borrell suffered
much.
Godric calls for Davos to sit and get beer and stew. Good description of the sister's stew - super clam chowder served in a stale loaf. A specialty of the Sisters. Hey says his daughter Gella makes it and he asks if Davos is married. He says the stew contains 3 kinds of crabs, red, spider, and conqueror. He syas he never eats a spider crab except in the stew - he doesn't want to be taken for a cannibal - and he gestures to his banner above the hearth - a spider crab, white on a grey-green
field.
Godric asks about Stannis burning his Hand. Melisandre had given Alester Florent to her god to conjure up the wind that took them north. His screams and agony blew them all the way to Eastwatch, if the red woman could be believed. Davos didn't like the wind. His granddaughter brought more bread - she had webbed fingers too - the mark of the Borrells for five thousand years. Eating meant Davos had guest right, and he would be save for a night at least. The lords of the Sisters had a bad reputation and none more than Godric Borrell, Lord of Sweetsister, Shield of Sisterton, Master of Breakwater Castle, and Keeper of the Night Lamp. Davos asks about the spices in the stew - saffron. Godric tells him it was from Qarth and there was pepper too. Cracked pepper from Volantis. He laughs that he took it off a sloe-eyed maid. A gale swept her intot he Bite and she smashed on the rocks. The forebears had been pirate kings until the Stakrs came down on them. These days the Sistermen did not participate in open piracy, but something much more sneaky - they would use their beacons along the shores of the Sisters to trap ships into coming into reefs and shoals instead of warning them and plundering the
wreckage.
Godric tells Davos of White Harbor and that the storms did Davos a kindness. He reveals that Davos came too late. Lord Wyman means to bend his knee, and not to Stannis. Godric tells of the origins of the Maderlys - 900 years ago they came north - they had been great lords of the Mander when they overreached and got slapped down by the green hands. The wolf king took their gold and gave them land and let them keep their gods. The Lionstar was at Sisterton twelve days prior to get water. Full of Freys making for White Harbor. Davos thought that the Freys killed Lord Wyman's son. Godric says they did. Wyman was so wroth he vowed to only eat bread and drink wine but was soon stuffing himself. The Freys were bringing the bones back to Wyman. Godric had Rhaegar Frey to supper - he lost his wife but would get one in White Harbor. Lord Walder and Lord Wyman made a pact, and will seal it with a
marriage.
Davos feels ill - thinking Stannis lost because White Harbor remained open even during the worst winter - and the city had silver on par with Casterly Rock's gold. It was the mouth of the north where Winterfell was the heart. Davos thought he must at least try. Davos begs Godric to help
him.
Rape of the Three Sisters was two thousand years ago - Sisterton had not forgotten, which is why Godric has no love for northmen. They were free before that, afterward they had to swear loyalty to the Eyrie to get the northmen out. The wolf and falcon fought over the Sisters for a thousand years - until they basically raped the islands of everything. Stannis upset Godric as well, having pulled into port when he was head of Robert's fleet, unannounced, and threatened him if any of his ships went aground if the Night Lamp when dark. Godric asks why he should help Stannis. Davos goes over in his mind all the reasons - he is the true king, becaus he is just, he can defend the realm against the peril in the north, and he has a magic sword. Davos wonders what to promise him to win him - gold, marriage - he was lost... Alester had played that game and died for it. Davos only response was to tell him Tywin was dead - and he tries to put doubt into Tommen and Cersei. Davos feels that Godric has doubts and doesn't want to be on the losing
side.
Davos pushes him talking about Stannis' fine work - holding Storm's End, taking Dragonstone from the last Targs, smashing the Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, and Tommen can't compare with him. Godric counters, saying Tommen has the gold of the Rock and Highgarden, and Bolton and Freys... but Godric says that in the world only winter is certain, saying Ned Stark told his father
that.
Godric tells Davos of before Robert's Rebellion, Gulltown remained loyal to Aerys, Ned had to cross the mountains to call his banners when Aerys called for his head. On the Fingers a fisherman carried him across the Bite, but they got caught in a storm - the fisherman's daughter got Ned to the Sisters. They say he left her with silver and a bastard in her belly - Jon Snow, she named it, after Arryn. Godric's father had a choice to send Ned to Aerys and win favor, or let him go - but Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown by then and Robert was the first over the walls and he killed Randyll Grafton. Their maester thought Rhaegar would crush the rebel, but Godric thought Robert fought the way a king should. That is when Ned said the line about winter being the only certainty. His father let him go and told Ned that if he loses, he was never there. Davos finishes the chapter, saying, "No mroe than I was."
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-28-04):
Are the Borrell arms described? If so, do they still look something like
this - Borrell? Sometimes he changes
'em.
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-28-04):
Salladhor Saan going isn't such a big surprise, I guess. Cut his losses, I
suppose.
The unicorns, Linda suggests to me, is based on the fact of unicorn horns coming from Skagos ... which means that they probably hunt narwhals there. ;) Cannibals isn't necessarily so odd, though. They're pretty fierce
there.
We know there are multiple Blackfyre Rebellions already, so that's not a
surprise.
Jon Snow's mother being a fisherman's daughter... Well, my reading of events back then say no. He wasn't even married, if I've read time right, so why should he be so upset about it? The whole notion is that he broke his vows to Catelyn, but that's not the case if this happens before the
wedding.
The _only_ thing I can see is that Ned was not in the Vale when Jon Arryn was told to bring Ned his head... But that doesn't sound
right.
Lodengarl, can you expand anything on the bit about Ned having to cross the mountains, Gulltown, etc.? You can read it two
ways:
(1) For some reason, Ned was not in the Vale when Aerys demanded his head, and he could not go straight up the NEck to gather his banners, so instead he went to the Vale and tried to take ship there. However, Gulltown having remained royalist led to his having to take a ship from the Fingers, etc.
or
(2) Ned was in the Vale, but Gulltown was royalist, and perhaps other likely ports (such as Old Anchor) were unsuitable, or similarly untrustworthy. The one option held out was to take a ship from the Fingers, but the only way to get to the Fingers from the Eyrie, by land, was over some mountains, which Ned promptly
did.
I prefer #2, as it fits my timeline of events rather a lot better than than #1.
Wonderful details about the history of the Three Sisters. Any mention of what Lord Sunderlands seat is?
Wouter2
Noble
(01-28-04):
Lodengarl, what is meant with the mention of the Flints? I didn't understand that part - did they accompany Saan's fleet with ships of their own???? Or did they, too, sighted Saan's
ships?
As for Jon Snow's mother, this looks like a red herring to me. I wonder if GRRM was thinking about this when he mentioned at one of the conventions (was it to Trebla?) that people were gonna be surprised about
R+L=J.
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-28-04)
Widow's Watch is on a peninsula in the North that sticks out prominently, and can sort of watch the way into the Bite. No doubt the Flints of Widow's Watch send word to the Three Sisters about traffic going in their general direction. That certainly seems to be what the summary implies -- they didn't accompany Davos, they merely sent word to the Sisters that a bunch of war galleys were heading their
way.
I don't think GRRM said that people would be surprised about R+L=J -- I don't think GRRM has even openly acknowledged any questions about
R+L=J. I could be wrong, though.
Lodengarl
3-Fisted Baron of the BwB
(01-28-04):
Flints of Widow's Watch saw the fleet - they weren't part of it.
According to the chapter, in order:
1. Aerys sent to the Eyrie for Ned's head
2. Jon Arryn told him to bugger off
3. Gultown was loyal to the throne
4. To get home, and call his banners, Ned had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and then get across the Bite
Brady
Knight of the Bloody Gate
(01-28-04):
I highly doubt the story about Ned and the fisherman's daughter - it sounds like another red herring designed to throw people off the scent. If it's the truth, I don't see any reason why it's been kept secret, or why Ned would make up a lie about a Dornish girl called
Wylla.
Wylla, a fisherman's daughter, Ashara Dayne ... more and more it seems to me that *someone* planted a lot of rumours about Jon's
parentage.
Wouter2
Noble
(01-28-04):
Widow's Watch is on a peninsula in the North that sticks out prominently, and can sort of watch the way into the Bite. No doubt the Flints of Widow's Watch send word to the Three Sisters about traffic going in their general direction
Yeah, I didn't realise that the Flints were so close to White Harbor, at first - I had mentally placed them among the Stark-loyal mountain clans. It's interesting that they communicate with the Sister's - they must have at least a reasonably good relationship.
I don't think GRRM said that people would be surprised about R+L=J -- I don't think GRRM has even openly acknowledged any questions about R+L=J. I could be wrong, though.
Well, I misremembered it somewhat. It was actually Parris who tweaked Trebla's nose about R+L=J. This is what I was thinking about (copied from the
citadel):
TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS:
Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit. HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*
ConJose 2002, reported by SOHP.
Lord Littlefinger6000
Freerider
(01-28-04):
Thanks so much Loady! Its good to finally see that R+L=J is not true!
Proud member of DOGMA and the CADL
ThreeHeadedDragon
Freerider
(01-29-04):
I wonder how the Borrell evolved webbed appendages,... unless they got them by interbreeding with some extinct race.
Regarding Jon's parentage,... heh I expect SoHP will be coming along soon wearing a big grin and saying "told ya!"
Dal Finlay
Sellsword
(01-29-04):
Manderley has swapped sides heh? thats a shame if he has then all those troops of the dreadfort fighting them on the hornwood lands are now free to join the BoB company not to mention any levies that white harbour can
raise.
Of course, old wyman manderley might be playing a different game then we see but i think it shows that most of the northern lords might bend the knee. But then again the manderleys dont have the thousand years of history with the starks as the others had as well as gods setting them apart. Still...bummer...and white harbour has access to sellwords compnaies with its ship and silver mines. So bolton gets an ally and leigeman and manderley gets a new wife and possibly the hornwood lands as
well.
Wouter2
Noble
(01-29-04):
Would there be any hope that Manderly plans a somewhat red wedding of his own? Making a pact with the Freys seems a bit over-the-top, he could just yield to Tommen if he thinks he can't fight on, and the Freys did murder his
son.
But I fear he really is going through with this pact. "Stark loyalist". Bah. Arya is going to have lots of
work.
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-29-04):
Yes, regarding webbed appendages. First thing I thought. Of course, it could really be because they've got merling blood -- and they certainly no doubt _claim_ it's because they have merling
blood.
One other thing that leapt out at me was the fact that White Harbor has silver to match (in quantity, I suppose) the gold of Casterly Rock. That's a _lot_ of silver, and we had no idea they were that wealthy. Perhaps Davos is exaggerating somewhat, but still, they must rate among the wealthiest lords of the Seven
Kingdoms.
No wonder they're so fat -- they can afford to indulge.
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-29-04):
To add on my thorough smashing of any notion that Jon Snow is a fisherman's daughter's
get:
Robert and Ned's conversation early in AGoT makes it very plain that the story Robert is aware of is that Ned slept with Wylla after the wedding to Catelyn. Catelyn, too, believes Jon Snow was concieved while Ned was on campaign. This also best fits the interpretations of the timeline -- the war was well under way when Jon was
concieved.
However, it's plain that in Borrel's version of the story, conception takes place before the marriage and before the war was really any issue outside of any place but the Vale. And, speculatively speaking, my own take on the timeline of events suggests that Jon would have been born (according to the story) 2-3 months before the Sack of King's Landing, whereas GRRM tells us he was born right around the Sack or a little after,
basically.
So ... that's a red herring, just to confuse things a bit more for those readers who haven't got pedantic knowledge of what's been said about Jon's
parentage.
OsRavan
Shield of Lannisport
(01-29-04):
for the f lints. there are mountian flints too i beleive. the family has several branches.
as to the manderlys. well as we see he didnt want to. he was in a fury. but as far as he knwos what choice does he have? HE doesntk nwo about stannis at this time. As far as he knows there are no starks. Renlys dead the lannsiters are victoriouse. and if he wants even one son alive he has to bend the knee. I tihnk if manderly had another option or if his son wasnt threatened he would have fought on. "These Songs will not be to everyone's taste, for there is little variation among them, all of them containing the same words, such as: hero, knight, horseman, galley slave, serpent, dragon, wolf, lion, eagle, falcon's nest and sword, sabres, lances, necklets, medallions, decrees, heads chopped off, slaves carried away, etc. May those who find them pleasing sing them; may those who do not, go off to sleep."
Wouter2
Noble
(01-29-04):
The other Manderly was captured by the Lannisters on the Red Fork (when Roose allowed half the northmen to be attacked, ridding him of most except for Boltons and Karstarks).
By the Lannisters. I can understand that he would bend the knee to Casterly Rock, but I see no reason to ally with the Freys - after all they did in the red wedding. And IIRC Manderly wasn't friendly with Bolton, another Frey ally, either. Perhaps he hopes to gain something there, should Bolton fall out with the
Freys.
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-29-04):
It would be the Gardeners of
Highgarden, the last dynasty to rule as Kings of the Reach, I expect.
Presumably other houses which carry green hands on their arms are making a claim to descent from the Gardeners specifically (who claimed descent from Garth Greenhand of the Age of Heroes). There are plenty of other houses who claim descent from Garth without making use of the green hand
sigil.
Dal Finlay
Sellsword
(01-29-04):
I think the Green hands refer to the house that ruled the reach before the targaeryn conquest. Gardener or somehting, the ones the Tyrells were stewards for. Anyway the House gardner died on the field of fire (blasted by dragons) and the lordship of the reach passed to the
tyrells.
In The Sworn Sword they make mention of the mander and severla of the names in it are similar to the first names of the
manderleys.
Anyway it seems the manderleys got too big for thier boots (like the Reynes and tarbucks with the lannisters) and had to flee the wrath of the King of the
reach.
Harry the Heir
Big Oedipal Daddy
(01-29-04):
So is this where Lark the Sisterman is from?
On the other side of Westeros, in the Iron Islands, storms are evil and "The Storm Lord" (or "the sky god") is essentially the ironman version of The Great Other. Here in the Fingers, it appears that the Lord of the Skies is good (along with the Lady of Waves), and storms are a sign of patronage to the Sisters. I wonder why it is that one pirate culture evolved their religion one way, and another in another
way.
And out of curiosity, is Salladhor Saan coming *back* from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea when he leaves Stannis? If he was going to desert him, why take him to the North first and risk the autumn
storms?
And one last question for Lodengarl or whoever has the chapter already: is Davos led across *one* bridge or two, at the beginning? It's not clear from the
summary.
Incidentally, I would suggest that nobody's intentionally creating rumors about Ned; however, a high up lord with an unexplained bastard causes a lot of opportunity for gossip to spread by itself, and a peasant girl with nothing else to show for herself may well claim that she is Jon Snow's mother to see if she can cash in on the noteriety of having slept with a major lord, particularly one known to be otherwise very
honorable.
CommishAaron
Council Member
(01-29-04):
Wow. Just when you think you've got a handle on Westerosian culture, Martin throws a new area at you that you've basically ignored the entire time. I actually found this chapter to be the most fascinating of all the chapters we've gotten so far (no real reason, I was just very intrigued by it all). Mucho kudos,
Lodengarl.
How about this possibility though: maybe the Jon Snow thing was a red herring, but there still very well could be a guy named Jon Snow running around the Sisterlands. That could lead to some interesting complications later
on.
Maybe the "R+L=J" "twist" Parris mentioned is that Ned had a bastard by Wylla, AND Lyanna and Rhaegar had Jon as their son. What happened to the other bastard, I dunno, but it would be an interesting possibility. Maybe there are little Ned's running around all over Westeros; wouldn't that be
ironic?
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-29-04):
The religion of the Iron Islands is a unique development, and so is its treatment of the Storm god. The duality of the Lord of the Skies and Lady of Waves matches rather well with the sea god and goddess of the winds mentioned in the tale of Durran and Elenei, however, and it suggests to me that these are somehow remnants of the original religion which the First Men brought with them to Westeros before they mostly adopted the gods of the
children.
I'd guess that the Iron Islanders, who really went into raiding across the oceans, became more antagonistic to storms, whereas the Sistermen seem to have been small-timers when it came to piracy and probably always saw the storms as somewhat beneficial, given the propensity the storms seem to have for tossing shipwrecks onto their
shores.
Wouter2
Noble
(01-29-04):
Because the Ironborn row ships to pillage and plunder - while the Three Sisters seems to take advantage of ships that can be drawn in and wrecked... maybe?
Agreed. The Ironborn hate storm because they can drown in it (duh), and makes piracing basically impossible. The sistermen OTOH don't go sailing anymore, and to them storms mean loot from wrecked ships (which they give the wrong signals from the coast with that
beacon).
This chapter gives a nice history of Stannis too - now we know why he was considered dangerous. He apparently made an end to the practice of luring ships to be wrecked on the coast (for the royal fleet at least) and he "smashed" the ironborn fleet during Balon's rebellion. Cool
TrackerNeil
Prince of Sunspear
(01-29-04):
I can't believe Lord Wyman would ally with the Freys after the treachery of the Red Wedding. It's one thing to bargain for a son's life, but quite another to sell out to faithless dogs.
Could Wyman be luring the Freys into a trap, in a kind of tit-for-tat maneuver? Given that the Freys are allied with the Boltons, with whom the Manderlys were fighting over the Hornwood lands, I have a difficult time believing in an alliance between the Twins and White Harbor, even setting aside the Red
Wedding.
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-30-04):
My reading of Lord Manderly is that he's terrified of what Roose Bolton is going to do now that he's Warden of the North, so he's trying to shield himself from trouble by becoming an in-law of sorts. No doubt he hopes the Freys will be able to mediate and apply pressure on Roose if there's a dispute.
I do not expect him to be trying to set up his own Red Wedding, especially with his heir, Ser Wylis, in Lannister hands.
I think it probable that Wylis is married, given that he wasn't noted as a possibility for wedding Lady Donella. Whether he has children or not would be an open question.
Manderly may be like the Greatjon, in that other children (including sons) of his have not been listed in the appendices because they haven't really factored into the story or been mentioned. So ... Wylis may not be his last survivng son, and no doubt he has a daughter or three.
Wouter2
Noble
(01-30-04):
"but after all the betrayal we've seen I'm not holding my breath. " implied ot me he was being branded as a traiter..
I was referring to all the earlier betrayals in the books.
However, I maintain that it is not necessary to marry one of the Freys just to be left in peace (unless he hopes to undercut the Bolton-Frey alliance). He could just to King's Landing and swear to Tommen - the Lannisters give "generous terms", don't they? It's not like Manderly has a particular feud with the Freys, and they can't easily strike him either (they will probably have enough on their plate in the Riverlands).
Making a bonafide alliance with the Freys would be betrayal wrt the son that was murdered, and the armsmen he lost at the Red Wedding.
So, the Lionstar is from the Royal Fleet. I guess that this alliance has the crown's blessing in that case. Perhaps they did put pressure Manderly, after all, allthough it would be weird from Lannister POV to make an unreliable ally stronger.
Jaehaerys
Freerider
(01-31-04):
Thanks Lodey, when I got this in the mail, it made my month! Great summary, btw. May the seven bless GRRM.
Harry, Davos crosses a bridge of black rock then through a gatehouse (with portcullis) then over a drawbridge. Next, through another gatehouse and across a yard where he sees the black tower that holds the Night Lamp.
A looked up sloe-eyed on Merriam Webster Online. The first definition, having soft dark bluish or purplish black eyes opens up another can of worms. Could this purple-eyed maid be the Lady Ashara Dayne?
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-31-04):
The implication that Gregor Clegane purposefully killed Ser Hugh of the Vale because the Lannisters wanted him silenced seems to have been a red herring. Cersei had had nothing to do with the poisoning of Jon Arryn, and Ser Hugh may not have had anything to do with it
either.
OsRavan
Shield of Lannisport
(01-31-04):
"White Harbor's forces are depleted (and they are)"
i have to disagreee strongly with that. Of robbs abbnermen he is probably the strongest as far as money and numbers go. but he sent the fewest men south of the major bannermen. HE had enough left to defend white harbor from a lannsiter invasion to sieze the hornwood land to ship men to fight at winterfell (most of which didnt die accoridng to grrm ) and be planning to ship many more. And *Sitll* not be showing any strain. So i dont think its depleted forces at
all.
I do think from his nager at the frey he feels *no* need to honor the alliances and obligations he made. this gives him some br eathing room to get his son bck and regroup. and first chance he gets he will jump on
someone.
btw. another possibility. if rickon showed up in white harbor.. is it not possible he just wnats enemy scrutiny off his city for a little
while.
Ran
King o' the Board
(01-31-04):
He sent some 1,500 south, all of whom are essentially no longer in play, and he sent hundreds more to fight over the Hornwood lands and then to lay siege to Winterfell (and be slaughtered by the
BoB).
By comparison, Roose is bringing a virtually-untouched Bolton force plus whatever other northmen follow his banner now that he's Warden of the North, and Ramsay Bolton has several
hundred.
The men guarding White Harbor, if they're in any really significant number (which I doubt) are probably the town's watch, essentially, and we all know that watchmen are not equal to good soldiers. I don't believe that White Harbor can raise 4,000 men, as the Freys can, despite White Harbor's apparent wealth. Of course, no doubt some of the population can be raised into a militia to defend White Harbor itself, to supplement the watch, but it's just not the same
thing.
I would guess that his core garrison numbers about equal to that of Ramsay Bolton, which keeps him safe from Ramsay, but not from Roose and his
forces.
So, yes, I think it's fair to say that White Harbor is in bad straits and that Lord Manderly is frightend about what will happen if he doesn't start jumping onto the Lannister band wagon. I don't believe that Lord Manderly will be betraying anyone just so that he can get revenge for the loss of his son. If he does jump ship, it'll be to join Stannis once Stannis proves that he's capable of beating
Bolton.
PartiallyRedundant
A Song of Hops and Barley
(01-31-04):
looked up sloe-eyed on Merriam Webster Online. The first definition, having soft dark bluish or purplish black eyes opens up another can of worms. Could this purple-eyed maid be the Lady Ashara Dayne?
Or...some other woman, maybe with a touch of Valyrian blood, on a trading vessel hailing from (one of) the Free Cities? When you read the chapter did you have any compelling reason to think that Ashara Dayne was on a ship that foundered off of the Sisters, and was in possession of a cache of spices and pepper?
TrackerNeil
Prince of Sunspear
(01-31-04):
How are the Lannisters going to Ferry Bolton forces to the north? With four ships? Can they ferry thousands of men with just four ships? Even if that's possible, will they dare to do so, given the autumn storms? And where will the ships land in the north? Not at White Harbor, unless Lord Wyman allows it, and as I recall he'd been rebuilding his defenses long before the Red Wedding.
if the Warden of the North calls the banners to fight off the ironborn threat, Manderly is bound to answer. If he doesn't, he'll be something of a traitor to King Tommen and Bolton probably will come down on him.
Here's a question: Will Bolton have luxury to attack White Harbor with the Greyjoys overrunning the North? Sure, the ironmen are in disorder now that Balon is dead, but that won't last forever. Besides, it is not as if White Harbor stands alone in terms of enmity against the Dreadfort. The Umbers, Mormonts, Flints, Lockes and Norreys also lost kin at the Red Wedding, and might welcome an anti-Roose alliance. Can Bolton stand off the Greyjoys and all of these Houses at the same time, even if he should get back to the North?
There's something else to consider. How dedicated with the Freys be to helping Bolton tame the North? Sure, Lord Walder would love Fat Walda's son to rule as Warden, but will he engage in a war against the Greyjoys to do so? The Iron Fleet can just as easily attack the riverlands as it did the Stony Shore, and Lord Walder won't forget it. Will Cersei even bother to help Bolton? Tywin made that deal, remember, and in the spoilers we've received Cersei's already shown herself perfectly willing to depart from what her father wanted in terms of policy.
Jaehaerys
Freerider
(01-31-04):
PR, It could either be the name of the ship that ran ground or a woman trader with purple or slanted eyes. (Slanted being the other definition of sloe-eyed). All Lord Godric says is that it was taken from a s-e maid. (Of course Im assuming that Lady Ashara is still a maiden after all these years of hiding out possibly protecting Aegon, or that she may have had a daughter with purple eyes who is a trader who would fit this description. The sisters are an out of the way place where Ashara could get information about Westeros without exposing herself to being recognized. What highborn lords would what to spend time with smelly, dirty, low-born ship weckers?)
To be honest, Im growing concerned about Davos after reading this chapter. GRRM likes to have characters go through variations of the same theme in his books but have them end differently (like Tryion with his two trails by combat). In ASOS, when Davos was in Dragonstones dungeon, it turned out fine, (like Tryion and the Vale), he was released and made Hand. Now, we a faced with a petty lordling who cant be trusted. GRRM then throws us off track by talking about Ned Starks similar situation and gives Davos guest right for the night. GRRM caps it off by showing us that Davos feels he is going to be let go. We know GRRM just finished a second Davos chapter, I feel Davos outcome in that chapter wont do well. Frankly, it wouldnt surprise me it GRRM trims his POV by killing the onion knight, he has too many POVs and Davos is not needed to show us whats happening at the wall (perhaps Tristen Sunderland arrives and sells him to Cersei). The only reason why I think GRRM might want Davos around still besides if hes AA, is so that he can sacrifice Stannis. But I hope Im wrong.
Dal Finlay
Sellsword
(01-31-04):
I have been wondering about manderley's forces. Originally i thought he would be a good base for stark loyalists but he could equally bend the knee so either way i was pondering what forces he could raise.
The Lords who went south took about half thier strength didnt they? So say he has lost 1,500 men in the south plus a another couple of hundred before winterfell and in the skirmishes on hornwood lands.
So he can raise another 800 men approx from his banners i reckon. I think Manderley wealth comes from the city rather then vassal lords he keeps knights as part of his force rather then landed keep holders like other houses.
Necessity recruiting of the populace of White Harbour (say in its defese) and the city watch or what ever put it at another 800 - a lot would of gone south but there would still be miners, shopkeepers, port authorities, necessary for the wealth of WH that maderley wouldnt send to war. Also the watch would not be anywhere near the size of the gold cloacks because white harbour isnt the size of KL.
And not only that might he not succeed in recruiting a couple of hundred men from the hornwood lands? Not hundreds and hundreds as in a levy but men that are enticed with gold to use thier longbows in his service
His defenses are strengthend as he mentioned and he might be able to call as many men to defend WH as he sent south though not as high quality. But he also has the coin, the time since AGOT and the ability to hire merchant ships coming into port. And send a few knights off to hire sellswords in the free cities.
If he hired one or two full companies of sellswords that would add another 3-4 hundred men to his garrison. and wiht a sailors prts there would be plenty of taverns, brotherl and WH silver to keep them occupied. Even if they didnt hire companies but groups of willing sellswords that could still be a couple of hundred there.
And they wouldnt be the worst treacherous quality like teh goats men; because Davos mentions WH is as rish in silver and casterley Rock is in gold so thats still very very rich. (Twyin lent 3 million in gold to the crown and it didnt dent his wealth much so a few million silver dragons could easily afford sellswords)
So by my reckoning Manderley could have (not under arms all the time) almost 2,000 to defend the walls of white harbour even a few more maybe.
Against this Bolton has say 4,000 in total, his forces from the RW and 500 men of the garrison of the dreadfort. Not including any left uncalled at the dreadfort (but lady hornwood said that the BOB was already calling them up) Even any more he could raise would be of dubious quality still to defend his lands against ironborn encroachment he would have maybe 5,000 to attack WH.
I wouldnt like to try it although that sounds over a 2-1 advantage in westeros a man on top a wall is worth ten beneath it according to twyin lannister.
If WH were to stay loyal or even just defy Bolton then it could prove irksome for im and manderley could force his own terms on bolton such as the hornwood lands etc. enough to tie down boltons forces for a while
TrackerNeil
Prince of Sunspear
(01-31-04):
One thing you may have left out of your calculations is Theon Greyjoy, who is the heir to Balon's title and by all reports is captive at the Dreadfort. Both Euron's friends and his enemies have an interest in freeing Theon, and that gives attacking the Dreadfort strategic value if not
necessity.
As to White Harbor, I'm not certain that Bolton will be able to gain sufficient strength in terms of ships to launch a land-sea assault on White Harbor. To do that, he must first get to the sea, then hope the Cersei orders Redwyne to send his ships to meet him, and hope that Redwyne obeys her, then hope that he doesn't lose many men to autumn storms, then hope that the newly constructed defenses of White Harbor are insufficient to repel a land-see assault. There's an awful lot of hope involved in that
scenario.
Dal Finlay
Sellsword
(02-01-04):
Didnt Catelyn note that one of manderleys sons was a very honourable man, or at least that he loved his honour more then food (and he REALLY loved his food). If that is true for the son might it be true for the
lord.
OK so in his mind the starks are dead and gone, any claiment arising would need to satisfy him of thier validity first. What im curious is if a man is honourable does he consider oaths sworn to a traitor and usurper in a tight spot (such as manderley finds himself) as valid as oaths sworn freely to a just and loyal
overlord?
What i mean is OK manderley might bend the knee to bolton, id like it if he didnt but im almost sure he might after a token resistance, but if in a few years and after numerous warrings with ironborn, stannis etc if a messenger came into his keep escorting a young man bearing the look of King robb walking beside a huge direwolf and convinced him of the validity of Rickons claim would not manderley think
"Well things havntn been going too sweet since winterfell was destoryed, my people have known war for years and my funds are falling, here stands the last scion of a house that has ruled in peace and war justly since manderleys swore to them....right oh young sir White harbour is
yours"
If the northern lords take sides between bolton and stannis and some even stand aside as thier hirs are captive of the ironborn how many would leave either camp after being tired of them to join with the new lord stark?
Bronn Stone
Salt Husband of Pyke
(02-02-04):
A key factor in my mind that will suggest that Manderley was sincere in his bending of the knee is that GRRM originally intended a 5-year gap. That has always said to me that things will settle down, and some equilibrium will be quickly reached. Manderley also has to know that he really cannot stand against Bolton and Frey, let alone the Lannisters or Highgarden.
Additionally, do we REALLY know that Wylla is Dornish? We know she was in Dorne and served as a nursemaid to the Daynes, but that doesn't mean she could not have once been the daughter of a fisherman in the Sisters. I am of the opinion that this is a red herring - thrown in just to show that there are stories all over the Seven Kingdoms about the birth of the Bastard of Winterfell.
But I can admit I was pretty shocked when I opened the envelope from Lodey and found word (whether misleading or not) of Jon Snow's birth in a conversation between Davos Seaworth and a Lord of whom I had never heard.
KAH
Archmaester
(02-03-04):
Wrt Howland Reed, I believe the Neck is a very bad place to come across with a large force of (say) 20K men. Being strung out like a long snake along narrow paths would be begging for small hit-and-run needle attacks all along. But Bolton's force is smaller, and that may help him, as it will give less opportunity to sap strength from him. Admittedly, a smaller force would be counterproductive once they reached a fortified Moat Cailin, but that's where Ramsay will make his appearance.
Regarding Victarion, sure he is the Commander of the Iron Fleet - but that was a title he got from Balon, who now is dead. If Victarion have been a good commander, he would have earned the respect of the Ironmen...but something tells me that Euron is still more respected (the attack on Lannisport was Euron's plan - Victarion merely implemented it). From the Kingsmoot it seemed like Euron carried the day, IMO.
I agree, however, that Stannis has the greatest potential to threaten Roose Bolton. Unless he becomes his own undoing first...
Lodengarl
3-Fisted Baron of the BwB
(02-03-04):
Asha, in exchange for her hostages and Torrhen's Square, will make a peace with the Night's Watch/Stannis/Wildlings - in exchange, Stannis will send the wildling horde and knights on the Dreadfort, only once it is revealed to Jon that Bran and Rickon were not killed, but lost...
errrrr...something like that, I haven't figured it all out yet, sheesh!
MaesterLuwin
King of the Citadel
(02-04-04):
Very interesting about Salladhor Saan...
You might recall that a few months ago, I came up with an in-depth theory that Salla is in league with Varys and Illyrio. The basic facts I had for that theory were that Salla and Varys were both born in Lys, and Salla has some of Illyrio's ships in his fleet. He makes a weak excuse to Davos that he captured these ships, but I suspected something more. I assumed Salla continued to hang around Stannis just so the Varys-Illyrio conspiracy would have a spy on Dragonstone.
But now Salladhor has left Stannis, apparently. Is it because Stannis is out of the main war, and no longer needs watching? Is Salladhor going to Dany? Or is my entire theory completely bogus?
I must say I am very intrigued.
AshaShan
Knight of the Queensguard
(02-05-04):
Interesting chapter and discussion, but theres one intriguing thing that hasn't been mentioned yet. When Borrel talks of Robert's Rebellion he describes Robert as fighting as a king should at Gulltown; this struck me as odd because we've seen other men be the first over the walls of a castle without being hailed as kingly, and since theres been much talk in the past as to when exactly Robert was announced as a claimant to the Iron Throne I was wondering if this indicates that he was already crowned by then.
what they probably mean is that it is kingly behavior. Thoguh also maybe oyu have to look kingly. or be as brave. i mean throos of myr isnt a very kingly figure.
It just seems a bit precipitous to me. Prophectic even. Every time a castle is stormed someone must be first over the wall after all, yet this is the only case we've seen in which a total stranger (I assume) hails the first man over as "kingly". Why, unless hes heard something else about Robert?
It's probably unusual that such a powerful lord (lord paramount of the stormlands) is the first man over the walls. Normally that would probably be a very aspiring knight (genre King's guard), or some random (but brave) armsmen.
Was not Thoros of Myr the first over the wall when Pyke fell to Robert's forces? And Theon Greyjoy was almost certainly the first over the walls of Winterfell. We haven't seen a lot of signs of random 'mooks' leading the way in this series.
Dal Finlay
Sellsword
(02-06-04):
Maybe being a king means different things to different fokls. To the people of the three sisters maybe if a king is there he should be the first through the breach? A king is a battle leader to some like the commadner of the van, rather then a commander like Tywin lannister
KAH
Archmaester
(02-16-04):
The waves were smashing against Breakwater's huge stone arches and swirling through the dungeons. Davos might end up there, chained to a wet floor, and would drown when the tide came in
Almost forgot this tidbit. I've actually anticipated such 'tide cells', but I thought they surely would be found on the Iron Islands. Oh
well.
Lyanna Wolfgirl
Noble
(02-21-04):
Additionally, do we REALLY know that Wylla is Dornish? We know she was in Dorne and served as a nursemaid to the Daynes, but that doesn't mean she could not have once been the daughter of a fisherman in the Sisters.
oh, i like that idea bronn. wylla as the fisherman's daughter. maybe she named her son jon snow too... that could indeed cause some intesting
complications...
You might recall that a few months ago, I came up with an in-depth theory that Salla is in league with Varys and Illyrio.
yes, i thought salla was in league with illyrio since his first mention of that chair that was designed for illyrio to sit in. and it does seem that illyrio and varys are plotting to reinstate the targ regency into westeros (from that convo that arya overhears). i could well see salla going to slaver's bay, or to seek out dany somehow. maybe he thinks that SHE at least will pay him. perhaps the reason he was supporting stannis was because he was trying to make the war last longer and give dany some more time. or maybe he has just been a sell-sail so far and he is yet to be turned to illyrio's plotting. but i bet the nect time we see salla (probably in book 5 ) will be in dany's pov....
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